EP. 5 Kriss Bass - The Good, Bad, and Ugly - Stormwater and Ecosystems

Environmental racism and the disproportionate environmental impacts.  How rules/policies impact development and addressing stormwater control.

Transcript

Wading Deep Podcast

Kriss Bass

Stormwater Engineer and Board Member of Partners’ for Environmental Justice (PEJ)

SPEAKERS: 2

Speaker 1–Reverend Jemonde Taylor, Rector – St. Ambrose Episcopal Church

Speaker 2–Kriss Bass of Kriss Bass Engineering / Board Member of Partners’ for Environmental Justice

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Speaker 1

0:24

Podcast Introduction-This is Wading Deep, a podcast that explores the connection between environmental justice and race. 

I'm your host, Reverend Jemonde Taylor Rector at St. Ambrose Episcopal church, Raleigh, North Carolina, a congregation with a long history of challenging environmental racism. I am honored to welcome today's guest, Kriss Bass, stormwater engineer, who is also on the board of Partners’ for Environmental Justice, (PEJ).  Welcome, Kriss.

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Speaker 2

0:12

Well, thank you. Thanks for having me.

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Speaker 1

0:16

How would you define environmental racism? In your own words?

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Speaker 2

0:22

It's a good question. You know, my experience with this is, is very specific to southeast Raleigh, and the Walnut Creek watershed, really the area of focus for PEJ. And to be honest, so I'm a little bit new to this arena or this issue. But what it really is, to me is areas where there have been disproportionate environmental impacts. And where those areas are focused, and overlap are minority communities. And those things have made the environmental problems all the more worse, because they're also combined with additional issues.

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Speaker 1

1:23

I appreciate that definition you gave Chris and particularly a nuance, obviously, you're an engineer, you come with an engineering background. And so when you talk about the disproportionate environmental impact, and leading to deeper environmental problems, as a stormwater engineer, you're not only looking at it through the lens of a sociologist, the one who is measuring, I guess, the human impact from a more, one would argue humanistic approach. But you also look at it from an environmental or an engineering or watershed approach. You use the term that some of us may not be familiar with. We talked about your entree into the space was your work in Walnut Creek watershed. Can you define what a watershed is and speak about the Walnut Creek watershed more specifically?

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Speaker 2

2:20

Absolutely. A watershed is what many, many people would even describe it as just a drainage area. It's basically all the land that drains to a particular stream or a body of water. In this case, I'm referring to the Walnut Creek watershed which is a stream that flows through Southeast Raleigh, and it carries the runoff and the drainage from a large area of Raleigh and all the way up into downtown Cary.

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Speaker 1

2:59

It's almost like a low lying area.  I know the way I like to think about wetlands and even watersheds is to use the bathtub analogy. It is a low-lying area that is collecting all of this water and the beauty of the wetland is that through flora and fauna and soil, it does a great job purifying cleaning water, allowing water to absorb into the ground. And what we find in Walnut Creek wetland is because of decades of degradation that it historically has acted like a bathtub that's clogged, which it overflows. And the corollary in our experience, Rochester Heights is… is flooding. Also, it's important, I think and what you talked about the connection across municipalities Walnut Creek beginning and Cary and then flowing through Raleigh, southeast Raleigh, continuing on to the Neuse, and then of course, out to the Atlantic.  In your studies of various watersheds, including Walnut Creek, and given the definition you gave earlier about environmental racism, is anything different about the Walnut Creek watershed? Are there other examples in your work as a stormwater engineer where you’ve seen, maybe similar phenomena?

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Speaker 2

4:29

I think the story of Walnut Creek is one that is repeated in a lot and a lot of larger cities and towns. There is a lot of development and a lot of impervious surfaces in Walnut Creek. We have basically to one city, another town and then a major university all exist within this watershed. So, there's a lot of buildings, a lot of pavement that generates a lot of runoff. Well, all that water is pouring down on to this lower area of southeast Raleigh, where we historically have large expanses of wetlands that would have been designed, not designed but in their natural state would, as you mentioned, flood temporarily, store water, filter that water. What has exacerbated the problem there is that we have communities that live in this area. And they were somewhat forced or…or directed to live in these areas. And we also damage the wetlands, right. So, we…we filled them in with trash, we filled them in with dirt, we treated them like they were discarded and non-valuable parts of our environment. And that has impaired their functionality as you as you have noted already. And so the combination of all that extra water and these wetlands that haven't been valued properly, has created this situation where there are a lot of people living in an area that is not the healthiest, ecologically, it's not functioning the way that it's supposed to. And the two things have sort of combined to create a difficult situation.

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Speaker 1

6:38

Something that's coming up for me that I had not thought about until this conversation with you right now, as I was…as you were talking, I thought about just the history of the United States, and how water was essential. So, we can take North Carolina history, you know, Tryon, I guess the first capital - New Bern, one of the early capitals that it's really along these water sources, where…when we think about colonial times, this is where Europeans and the British English came. And then waterways like the Neuse River. You think of the Tar River, along these water sources is where cities and towns were developed. And without water, you didn't have development. And as you were talking about the development along Walnut Creek, I'd not considered it, that a lot of development is happening along the creek. And it's almost like it's, it's a modern-day reenactment of what happened three centuries ago, that along this water source, not… not…not that there's anything special about Walnut Creek, you can't sell a ship up Walnut Creek. So, it's not like you're trying in New Bern.  But it's something about, I guess, where Walnut Creek is located in proximity to the city center and development along that water source that really is putting those historically underrepresented groups, continuing to put them in a posture of being disadvantaged when we think about the Neuse River. There are a number of enslaved cemeteries along the Neuse River, because that was land that was not desirable. You couldn't farm it. You no one lived there. You didn't build a house there. But because it was untouched, that is where the enslaved chose to build or bury, honor their dead - for a number of reasons not to go into right now. And the idea that…that the underworld for the African was upside down, and that a river separated it. So, you had that… that theme going on, but also that it was undesirables land and that's where black people were chose to leave the bodies of the deceased, as you said, because of Walnut Creek and other low-lying areas. At one point in time, it was not… it was not land where the larger culture wanted to live. And now it is and it's being developed. And so, because it's low-lying area, those neighborhoods that we find at Rose Lane, Rochester Heights, Dacian Lane, are really in peril because not so much of climate change but what I call non climate stressors like development and impervious soil and paving that causes more stormwater to run into the creek instead of being soaked into the ground.

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Speaker 2

9:40

Yeah, I think I think that's super interesting thing to think about. You know, we… we did use to mean a long time ago have to live near the water because… because that's the only way it would be good. But once we kind of developed an ability to get the water in other ways we started building on higher ground. And now you know most of the higher ground is already has already built on. And we have a lot of areas, especially the southeast Raleigh is very close to our downtown. It had not been under that much developmental pressure. But now it is a very desirable place and on the wish list for a lot of developers.

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Speaker 1

10:29

Yeah, it's almost like New York City or DC. You know, which DC built on wetland – swamp land and same for New York City. Of course, very different from… from Raleigh. But again, the same issue. And now we see because of climate change, particularly New York City is in peril, because of rising sea water, you know, the projection by 2100, that a good portion of lower Manhattan will be in the 100-year and 500-year flood plain. And that with the large storm event, as we saw with Sandy, some years ago, flooding, it's a real issue. So, you're right, going to higher land, higher land has now been developed. So, they're now the low-lying areas, all that remains. And so that's being developed as well.

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Speaker 2

11:23

You know, the thing, the thing that is different about now, though, is that we have the tools that we need, we have the technology that we need, and we have…we have the ability to manage these developments better, we have the ability to restore the health of these wetlands, we have the knowledge, we need to protect these neighborhoods, and create a better and healthier life for all of them. We just…we just have to be willing to do it and to make it happen. Whereas some of these other places and these other bigger cities and stuff they've - their ship has sailed, so to speak like there, it's going to be difficult for them to go back. This area really still has the potential to… to be the way it's supposed to be.

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Speaker 1

12:18

You're absolutely right. And what you said we do have the tools and it's frustrating that we don't often use the tools. I'm currently chair of SMAC (Stormwater Management Advisory Commission) and we've done a lot of work around the UDO (Unified Development Ordinance), which is the code for builders. And our hands have been tied because of the General Assembly, which in 2018 passed a bill that grandfathered in you know impervious design, meaning that if a site is 100% impervious, that you cannot mandate as a local municipality, that they do better, and to develop aircon, keep it at its 100%, meaning all the water flows off. And we have the technology. And so here we have the law really hamstringing, you know, local municipalities to make their own decisions to do better to pass ordinances that can be a benefit to places like Rochester Heights. And so from a smack standpoint, of course, we can influence city projects, but they pale in comparison to what's done on a corporate side. And so it's really power persuasion. And many times developers would rather not go above and beyond what's required by code. But…But do the bare minimum because of fear of increased costs when actually green stormwater would infrastructure, low impact development might actually be a little bit cheaper, and certainly better for the environment in the long run. I wonder, Chris, if you could talk about how did you get into this world? I mean, you know, you're an elementary school, you say I want to be a storyboard engineer. Yeah. Can you talk about… about your journey?

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Speaker 2

14:24

Yeah, I grew up in Fayetteville, North Carolina. And I was I think I was always attracted to the outside to being outside and, and I sort of developed a love for the woods and the streams. And I spent a good time on my teenage years in the boy scouts. And that really sort of led to this idea that I wanted to make a career out of out of protecting the environment and doing… doing what I could also have A little bit of a I guess a I don't know if knack is the right word, but a like for a draw towards engineering. So, I just found it very, it was it was a very easy decision for me to study environmental engineering in school and follow that sort of path.

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Speaker 1

15:23

Where did you study environmental engineering at NC State? 

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Speaker 2

At NC State

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Speaker 1

Go pack? Course I'm non biased. Of course, I am biased as mechanical engineering class of 2000. So, no, I think I think your story is… is powerful and profound that at an early age, you were able to see the combination of your love of nature, and engineering, and how those …those come came together. And Environmental Engineering. What a gift. I'm wondering if you could talk about your experience with the downtown South development. I met you a number of years ago, Chris, but really my respect for you grew already respected you but… but my respect for you grew by orders of magnitude and the… the work you did around downtown south, in the project on… on Walnut Creek that 141 and 50 acre development proposed by John Kane.  I remember sitting in a zoom call and the pandemic just hit this would have been August of 2020. As Kane Realty was presenting to whoever was on a call - the viewer list was suppressed about this project. And I just remember thinking if this goes through, as designed, St. Ambrose will flood. We're already built in the flood plain; this is not going to be good for us. And then I saw the first rezoning request. When it gets to storm water, the developer said there was no stormwater impact, which just did not square well with me at all, because I can make that statement given the particular 80 acres of wooded area that was going to be raised. And then of course, the work you did with PEJ, help to go from 10 words in August to a 1500. Word rezoning request in December 90 days later. Yes. Can you talk a little bit about downtown south the work you did? 

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Speaker 2

17:33

Sure. You know, you brought up the rules before and how the rules are a lot of times. You know, they're meant to do good, but a lot of times, sometimes they they get stuck or we get hamstrung to the rules. And it turns out that, you know, rezoning cases are like one of our only opportunities to sort of ask for something that's more than normal. And it's… it's because the developer goes for rezoning, they are asking for special permission to do a project. And that was really our opportunity to ask for something special to go along with it. You know, this…that that particular development is one of the one of the biggest proposals, you know, one of the biggest single place developments in in recent history in Raleigh. Its site is right on top of Walnut Creek. It's just upstream from these communities that are already so threatened. It was on a lot of people's radars. And there's a lot of people asking what you know, what can we do? And, you know, stopping the development like that is… is not easy to do. And even if we really wanted to do that, you know, there's pluses and minuses for all of them. And we were able to work with them to their to their credit, they… they listened to us they listened to our concerns and they did enter some negotiations on to those conditions. In the end, we were able to get them to agree to four or five very specific conditions all related to stormwater. So, when this development starts and they are I think are still in the planning phases, now, they will…they will be held to a very high standard of controlling the runoff from their development, to capturing it and to protecting the downstream communities and what was really, there's a couple things that are really important that came out of it. And it's not just the things they agreed to. But it's the philosophy that working in Walnut Creek, to me require something extra. And because this group has agreed to that, we are using that to try to get other developers to do the same. And PEJ has now negotiated similar agreements with several other developers to add these types of stormwater controls to their plans. It… it helps to spread the word about the importance of stormwater the threats of stormwater the impacts of stormwater, it brings it to our city's attention and brings it to developers’ attention. And then what was really groundbreaking about this is the… this particular developer agreed to provide funds into a program that can be used to accomplish projects in in the Walnut Creek watershed. And that, as far as we know, is something that has never really been done before. And I think we're super excited about the possibilities of what that could mean. And what that maybe could do.

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Speaker 1

21:28

You are spot on. So much came out of I would say the struggle is from… from my standpoint, I think about Frederick Douglass, the great abolitionist who said, you know, without struggle, there is no progress. And it also points to the importance of relationships and conversations. When I said in that meeting in August 2020, the developer said they had had conversations with the community, but those have not been extensive. And they pale in comparison to the conversations that happened in the 90 days between September and December, the two-rezoning request. And something beautiful was birthed, you talked about the five specific stormwater design request that not requested, I guess, mandates or considerations that were…that were agreed upon by both parties. And this $2.5 million Walnut Creek stakeholders grant matching fund, I happen to be treasurer of that group, we have had meetings just began meeting recently. And so that that fund can grow up to $5 million, if grants are matched, and… and when I talk to leaders of Raleigh stormwater department as well as another municipalities, nothing as far as we know, like this has ever happened. So it shows that when the development community and community members come together, really on equal footing, as much as possible, that something very unique, can come out, that is beneficial for the community, and help and can also advance the developers cause that both don't have to be mutually exclusive.

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Speaker 2

23:25

Totally agree. Certainly, it would, it would be great if we could, you know, maybe go back to a place where and start all this over all again and plan it out from stage one. But I do think that, that we can have we can have nice things, we can have developments. But we can also have healthy communities. And we can also understand the impacts of in the tradeoffs of development in different areas and what those impacts may have on people downstream.

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Speaker 1

24:00

Yeah, you said something as you're talking about downtown south that when you talk about Walnut Creek, particularly southeast Raleigh, that's special or thoughtful consideration needs to be given when development impact that area. And that is something that has not been explicitly said it's certainly not in any type of ordinance for the City of Raleigh. Since I've been chair of stormwater, we are working on putting equity framework into our projects. And as I've told them, there needs to be some type of engineering factor that takes into account the history of a place the level of underinvestment under investment that has happened and also areas that are at high risk that we need to somehow place a factor around that away. Meeting factor that when we prioritize projects, southeast Raleigh is given as you said special consideration, and especially consideration from downtown South came about because the community was in an uproar. That doesn't happen with every development because every development is not 39 million square feet and larger than the current downtown Raleigh. So how do we do that in smaller developments, and I think you're spot on. I wonder if you could maybe speak specifically about a couple of the design requirements that both, King Realty and PEJ and a community agreed upon.

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Speaker 2

25:43

I will have to look those up. It has been so long since… since we signed all that or since since the paper went, paperwork went through.

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Speaker 1

26:00

But that's…and that's okay, maybe speak more generically about some design considerations that perhaps we're using downtown south. But, of course, we're using other projects.

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Speaker 2

26:14

Sure. Every… every new development like this is gonna have some requirements to store stormwater and to treat that water before it's released into the stream. But what was done with this particular one is… is we sort of raised the bar on those standards a little bit, they agreed to a little bit of something extra with those standards than what would be normally agreed to. They also agreed to at least consider as part of their planning, what we call green infrastructure devices. And what that means is a more decentralized way of capturing and treating stormwater. What is very common these days is to take all your stormwater and to dump it into a single pond. And that we find is…is not really an effective or highly functional way. Basically, you're taking water from the surface and it stays on the surface. Green Infrastructure is more about trying to get that water back into the ground where it belongs, and have it delivered very slowly to our streams, and have it where it can recharge our wetlands in a healthy and safe way, and so just the fact that they have committed towards doing those devices and…and exploring those is, is a big win, because it's… it's a different way of thinking and a different way of… of developing. What we yeah, I think… I think those are the main ones that stick out to me. The final one that I think is very different and is going to make a big difference is they have agreed to really put a lot of effort into a study of Walnut Creek. And what they are, at least supposed to do with this study is help us identify where the problem areas are, where the most water is coming from, why we're experiencing flooding. And what are some ways to make that better. And so that will be a way of sort of jump starting the actions of this fund program, jump starting the efforts of our Walnut Creek action team and watershed action team and also giving some direction to groups like NC State’s partners for environmental justice. These are the places where we need to work. These are the places where we need to focus so that we can benefit these areas.

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Speaker 1

29:14

I think there's absolutely amazing, again, that all of that is birthed out of this initial conflict. And again, it just would have been great if we could have gone back to the beginning, not had conflict before the development was even thought about and invited entities to work together to move forward to get to where we are now of course that was not possible. And I think what you've talked about not only what the stormwater design, but also funding research to find out why flooding is happening in some places. And for that to be financially supported, in some sense by a private developer. Again, this is this is breaking new ground On this… this is charting new waters. And I think the city and developers in the community will continue to look back to this project to try to see what other possibilities can be unlocked.

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Speaker 2

30:16

I hope so too. And I don't mind telling you that and you may have not seen this, despite that you're… you're connected to all of these groups. But we are already seeing the benefits of this. It has, I think it's already clear that there are people focused on this area, there are people focused in this watershed and that if you're planning a project here, we're starting to see people reach out proactively to ask about these things and to find out about them. And to me, the more, the more successes we get, the more that it will just become sort of the way the way we're doing it. This is this is the status quo, raise the bar for what we expect, raise the bar for what we require. And pretty soon we'll be we'll see some …some changes that might actually move the needle.

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Speaker 1

31:17

You know, as you were talking earlier about the work of downtown south and green stormwater infrastructure GSI reminded of the work that needs to be done on the community side as relates to beauty and aesthetics. I was visiting a community where one of the residents in the neighborhood was just bemoaning the fact that they live, they live beside this horrendous water forest. And I had no idea what a water forest was, that was not a term I was familiar with. And so I'm visiting. And as we walk up, I said, Oh, my goodness, what a beautiful wetland. And this person looked at me and said, That's the water forest. When I bought my house, I thought it was going to be near this retention pond. But now I got to look at this mess. So I'm looking at this non retention pond, which is a… a wetland, a manmade wetland, seeing it as a sign of beauty with this very sinuous water path with the natural vegetation that's growing. grass that's not manicure, I was really in awe that the developer created this. And then the homeowner would rather live beside, you know, a retention pond with that non pristine, dirty storm water that as you said, it's just designed to stay above ground, and not. So, soak into the ground. And so education continues. There needs to be room for education or made space for education, to introduce people to a new way of thinking and being and defining what is beautiful. I saw that wetland as something tremendously beautiful. This homeowner would have red - a brown retention pond. And that's a hurdle that has to be crossed. Because that's real, because this person thought is going to bring down their home value. I'm like, we don't have mosquitoes that you normally would I mean, it's July in North Carolina, it's hot. And that's a mosquito bed that would be out there. But isn't there now because water is being moved along and soaked into the ground?

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Speaker 2

33:34

You're…You're absolutely right. And that is that's why we treated our natural wetlands so poorly years ago, is that we didn't understand what was going on in there. We didn't understand the magic of the water filtering and the…the functions that they provide. And so we treated them badly. And then they became those wastelands that we thought they were. But you're absolutely right. There's an education obstacle, and that those who understand what is happening inside those wetlands see them totally different than people who don't.

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Speaker 1

34:23

So Right. Chris, what… what gives you hope, these days?

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Speaker 2

34:30

Know what gives? What gives me hope is I really feel like we are closing in on a tipping point of these watershed understanding. And as you said so eloquently about there's no progress without struggle to know a lot of struggle going on. And I think we're getting very close to the point where there's enough interest, there's enough tools and there's enough of people fighting for this that we're going to start to see some benefits. And Saint Ambrose, to me is the absolute example of that because you have embraced the fact that you're a neighbor to the wetlands, you have implemented rain gardens all around your church, you are showing people that there are things you can do yourself to embrace these problems and to live more harmoniously with nature. And that has sprung other projects. There are several people in Rochester Heights who have built rain gardens at their homes. There is a new rainwater harvesting system over at the community garden and on Crosslink. We are designing a brand new stormwater system for Biltmore Hills Park. And all of these little things could add up to a really big thing. And with the work going on at Bailey Drive, and at the Walnut Creek Wetland Center, all of this stuff is bringing more attention, more resources, more education, to this area, and I think it's eventually going to really, really take off

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Speaker 1

36:30

I agree with you it does feel like something is taking off and it's been decades of hard work. You know, we think of Dr. Norman Camp blessed memory. Really his …his spearheading a lot of this effort from what was Episcopalians for environmental justice becoming Partners for Environmental Justice (PEJ). We think about the work of Saint Ambrose, how we have used our property, our building, to be a place for education, about educating about environmental racism, and how churches can be good neighbors from a theological standpoint. When we talk about sin, we say that human beings have sinned against the environment, which is which is about right relationship that human beings have been in wrong relationship with the environment. And so, at Saint Ambrose, we've been very intentional about writing that wrong relationship, which is about the dissipation on removal of sin. And so when we talked about our building campaign, it was from an ecological standpoint, and even our new columbarium, where we bury the ashes and urns of the recently departed up to our brand new Ethiopian cross inspired labyrinth. Both of those are our permeable, water soaks in and you talk about the rain garden and rain gardens, we have three and a 2000 gallon water cisterns. And not to mention the low E glass window around the envelope of the church, all of those and then the LED lights, all of those done with the thought in mind of how to be a good neighbor to the environment. And I'm excited about what's happening on Crosslink. I think that's a wonderful community project. And you're right, other residents in Rochester Heights, Biltmore Hills, even southeast Raleigh are inquiring about rallies, rainwater rewards, how to get rain gardens, how to get cisterns. And so the news is spreading from a Christian standpoint who say that the gospel is being spread as gospel about how to be in better relationship with the environment. And there's also a cost savings component as well. We use our 2000 gallon cisterns for drip line irrigation so we're using the rain that God gives us to help water our grass and that's a good thing. Thank you so much Chris has been a been a fantastic conversation.

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Speaker 2

39:03

Pleasure… it's always a pleasure.

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Speaker 1

39:06

The Wading Deep podcast comes to you from a place we affectionately call The Brose, Saint Ambrose Episcopal Church, Raleigh, North Carolina. Follow us on Facebook, YouTube, The BroseNC on Twitter and TheBrose1868 on Instagram. 

I am your host, the Reverend Jemonde Taylor. God is going to trouble the water of environmental racism, resurrecting a river of life clear as crystal. 

Shalom, Salaam, Peace.