EP. 2 Pt. 2 Historians-In The Beginning

The history of Saint Ambrose Episcopal Church and its numerous church movements within the city of Raleigh provide a story about repeated environmental racism and economic disenfranchisement.  It is also a story about the resulting response and actions taken by the Saint Ambrose church community.  In order to understand Saint Ambrose’s history, you have to review its history from the 1860s to present day.

Transcript

Wading Deep Podcast 

Historians 

SPEAKERS: 4 

Speaker 1 – Reverend Jemonde Taylor, Rector – St. Ambrose Episcopal Church Speaker 2 – Ernest Dollar, Executive Director of City of Raleigh Museum 

Speaker 3 – The Reverend Dr. Brooks Graebner, Retired Rector of St. Matthews Episcopal Church, Hillsborough, North Carolina, Historiographer for Episcopal Diocese of North Carolina 

Speaker 4 – Dr. Earl Ijames, Archivist, Curator and Historical Preservation of North Carolina Museum of History, Farming Activist 

SECOND SEGMENT 

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Speaker 1- Reverend Jemonde Taylor 

This is Wading Deep, a podcast that explores the connection between environmental justice and race. 

I'm your host, Reverend Jemonde Taylor Rector at St. Ambrose Episcopal church, Raleigh, North Carolina, a congregation with a long history of challenging environmental racism 

1:25 

I am honored to welcome today's guests who are renowned historians. Mr. Ernest Dollar is Executive Director of the City of Raleigh Museum. The Reverend Dr. Brooks Graebner is the retired Rector of historic St. Matthew's Episcopal Church, Hillsborough, North Carolina, as well as the historiographer for the Episcopal Diocese of North Carolina and Dr. Earl Ijames is archivist curator, historic preservation, and I guess farming archivists that I learned recently. He's with the North Carolina Museum of History. Welcome, gentlemen. 

The topic today is history surrounding Saint Ambrose using the congregation's three physical locations as time markers, Smokey Hollow from 1868 to 1900. The churches moved near the Prince Hall district from 1900 to 1965, and a move to Rochester Heights from 1965 to present day, and we're concentrating on the 

second move. The first move to our second location, beginning in 1900. And, Dr. Ijames, I know you've done extensive research on color lines, I think Raleigh is unique in that it had two racial color lines. Can you talk about what was happening leading up to the 1900s that made Saint Ambrose’s move almost inevitable? 

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Speaker 4- Dr. Earl Ijames 

2:15 

Well, a couple things. The color line barrier Well, Raleigh was not that large of a city back then. It was alone with Washington DC, the first two plan capitals in America 1792, with East West North and South Street that was that way literally until 1857. And in 1857, the city was expanded. And I'm sure Ernest can tell you more about this, where those limits went beyond those east, west, north and south streets. But in 1900, we were having also this end of Reconstruction, so to speak, this post reconstruction where it culminates with the 1898 coup in Wilmington, and then in 1900, with some of the last elections or free elections in our

state, and for almost a century, where the last black Republicans and the last participation of African Americans and Indians, for that matter. And the process was pretty much ending in 1900. And of course, 1901 is when the grandfather clause is inserted. And so, we began to get this mandated move toward racial segregation and an unequal access and racism. Well, not so much racism, but legal discrimination, legal racism, so there's this etching out and engraving out in all communities, especially rather than capital city of was white was colored. And so that area had been before 1900 Morgan and Wilmington streets right in the middle of Raleigh there. But as…as after 1900 the Prince Hall Mason lodge itself, probably embodies this because they literally had to move…when they literally moved across the street from Cabarrus to their present location. And it's interesting, I was talking to some of the Masonic brothers over there not long ago, and they would describe in the move as they move the building on logs, you know, that short area, but that short distance, exemplified figuratively a much longer distance where it was becoming mandatory to be separate and unequal. And…and so, by 1900, the… the, you know, Smoky Hollow had pretty much been, almost smoke it out, I guess, for lack of a better word. It, you know, had been superseded, replaced. And some of the foundations of what a lot of people seeing in Raleigh now are beginning and the institutions are beginning to supersede them, you know, particularly I think about my alma mater over at NC State being put right in the middle of those previously mentioned, historically black communities over there. But also, if we come closer back to town, closer back to downtown in 1868, the legislature does something that is, is almost, we talked about environmental racism, environmental justice, they decide to erect a penitentiary “for a better management of convict labor”. That is… that is the actual law to create Central Prison, right? An erection of a penitentiary for the better management of convict labor. So, this law comes out of the legislature in 1868 into July, and of all the places in the whole state where there can be placed a penitentiary, the legislature decides to place it literally in the midst of those historically black communities. So, coming back over, you know your and I know this covers the previous conference, but by 1901 these institutions and pretty much superseded or almost blotted out a huge segment of those old black communities and… and help to perpetuate this environmental aspect of race to over the environmental racism aspect of racism. And…and so, that 1900 timeframe as such the watershed period in our history and particularly in our state's history, because we're beginning to be forced into that separate and unequal and…and just finished and you mentioned the Ode Family there who were and they 1880s and 90s fairly prominent people. I think the Ode… older Ode, actually worked as a barber at the Yarlboro Hotel there and …and… and so literally having to you know, pick up roots and and…and, and go into and create what we now see in many respects as a dissolve in southeast Raleigh as disappearing southeast Raleigh. That is an almost…almost - I don't want to say doing the same mistakes over but we're doing the mistake, same mistakes over again. And that same community today. 

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Speaker 1- Reverend Jemonde Taylor 

7:59 

You're absolutely right. You know, you talked about let me sign a clog. Masonic Lodge being rolled on logs. That's what we did at St. Ambrose. We physically lifted up our edifice in June of 1900, put it on logs and rolled it a mile across two color lines. And Ms. Willie Ode Kaye recounted and I'm reading this is directly from her 1988 interview. Mrs. Kay said, I was about five years old then. And then I remembered even that little church, Saint Ambrose being moved right in front of our house on Cabarrus to Wilmington Street. I remember my sisters and I were sitting outside on the front porch one day, and it was rolling pass going on down to the place. They had made a basement and they roll this little church over that. It was a basement with three rooms and a toilet. And then I was confirmed by Bishop Cheshire. So not only was the Masonic Lodge rolled, the church was rolling as well. 

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Speaker 4- Dr. Earl Ijames 

9:06

It makes me wonder if they move the same. They use the same log rollers? Very good. Right there, right there at the same time frame, it's, you know, it just seems too plausible. Anyway, those are weird, nerdy questions from historians. 

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Speaker 3- Ernest Dollar 

9:30 

I just want to jump in and back up what Earl was talking about that, you know, after the Civil War, Raleigh communities, you see a lot of black communities around the fringes of the city pop up to these previous Freedman areas and for slaves rushing into take advantage of Raleigh, but we in the following decades, it was a very mixed… mixed communities, they were much more integrated, but it's not until the end of the 19th century do we see this stratifications. With this, these color lines really pop up hard and heavy, we see that African Americans being forced to certain parts of the city. And I think the church is a victim of that, that that real estate the church held was just far too valuable in the industrial core of downtown Raleigh, that it had to be moved. And you know, the industrialist who bought the church's property built the Melrose Mill, you know, that those white business interests at the economic engine that was really cranking up the south of the Civil War, it was just you have to push these undesirables out to the certain area. And certainly, starting in the 1900s. It is a… it is the to the crash of the populist movement with white and poor black got together. And it was just a retribution that follow because like Earl mentioned, the literacy test, the poll tax, the grandfather clause. All of these illegal apparatus are in place to, you know, to ensure that African Americans can no longer mount this political revival. And then if we talk about space, moving of space, some of these beautiful Raleigh neighborhoods when they start popping up, they have restrictive covenants on it. So, Boylan Heights, 99, Glenwood 96, Cameron Park, 1910 forbade any people of color moving into it. So, about this time, it's it is hard and fast about where white people are and black people are in to sort of push them farther apart. This is really what's shaping Raleigh first decades to centuries. 1 

Speaker 1- Reverend Jemonde Taylor 

11:36 

Dr. Graebner, can you speak a little bit about what was happening in the diocese, or even in the larger church around that time? 

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Speaker 2- Dr. Brooks Graebner 

11:47 

Thank you - I want to first I don't want to evade that question. But I want to follow up first, on a point that came up with in that wonderful remembrance of rolling the church down. And they talk about the three rooms in the basement. What's one of the aspects of, of Saint Ambrose that… that should not be overlooked, is its continuing commitment to education. And under the leadership of James King, a parochial day school is created starting in 1895, that will have 200 students in that basement by 1910. And so that one of the things that I would want to underscore is that while the political and social and cultural turn is is distressing, and…and…and we have latent racism, being manifested in, in and enshrined in law, that that continuing commitment educational uplift on the part of the black church, and the black community should not go on acknowledged. So really, it's the fact that that those three rooms are created and then the church is ruled over it, again reminds us of the importance of education and the black church going hand in hand. 

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Speaker 1- Reverend Jemonde Taylor 

13:30 

Stay on that point before you go to the question I asked. Thank you for bringing up Father King and the educational component just from doing some simple math. Saint Ambrose during that time, I think had one of the first kindergartens perhaps the only kindergarten perhaps in Raleigh, maybe in the state, and we were educating 20% of the eligible black population, which is quite impressive when you think of one congregation providing education for 20% of Black people who of course, were in the proper age group at that time. So yeah, commitment to education and that the building, followed it. Not only was a building moved, but it was expanded basement and then of course, rectory and education facility on site. 2 

Speaker 2- Dr. Brooks Graebner 

14:26 

Yeah, so, yeah, I know it's a bit of a dis, you know, a sidetrack, but I just wanted to make sure that…that continued sense of identity is…is acknowledged as well. Um, yeah, the Diocese in North Carolina. Yeah. You know, is, is accommodating, its theology, in practice, to the realities of Jim Crow, in ways that are, are very sad, and indefensible, but...but are real. And, and so this is the period in which, you know, up through the 1890s, it's still possible to find biracial congregations, and a biracial commitment to shared ministry. And after 1898, that's just completely gone. And the black church is left to make its own way, in the world, and, and the leadership, and the resources are coming somewhat from Northern philanthropy, but much of it is, is homegrown, and speaks to these enduring values and commitments on the part of black Episcopalians to remain loyal to their own sense of mission and calling in as you see that, especially in the educational outreach that Saint Ambrose is doing in the early 20th century. Does that? Is that what you wanted to then answer the question? 

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Speaker 1- Reverend Jemonde Taylor 

16:15 

No, that's perfect. And I think I really appreciate your phrase of the church following culture. The church has done a fantastic job and that is not complimentary of not leading culture, but rather following. So, and as you just delineated that time period earlier 20, early 20th century, is a perfect example. Others comments on this time period, from 1900 to 1965, huge expanse of time. We know that when Saint Ambrose was rolled into its location, a year later, we have the building of the Pope house. I think that's correct - 1901. Pope being one of the first if not the first physician, black physician in Raleigh, and certainly the first black person to run for mayor of Raleigh. Is that correct? Ernest? 

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Speaker 3- Ernest Dollar 

17:19 

Yeah. We had actually had one other black mayoral candidate in 1870s - Andy Lockhart. But certainly Dr. Pope's run was one of the most powerful and he was on a slate of other black politicians. And yeah, Dr. Pope, built his… his house, immediately adjacent where the church we moved to so we do a lot of studying on this third ward, part of the city. And it's a growing professional neighborhood, we always try to understand why Dr. Pope built his house here. It is right on this color line. He was staring into the back of all of these white mansions that lined Fayetteville Street. It was adjacent to his alma mater at Shaw University. And there were a number of professional men who lived up and down the street. So, it's some it's a thriving neighborhood this time. And but I think a lot of the access to education and resources began to take its toll on this neighborhood later on. And certainly, if you go to where the church was, at this time, the Pope house it is a sea of sea of concrete. And I think we'll cover that in the next section. But certainly, by the end of this period, we see that Raleigh's black communities get the suburb bog downtown has not a lot of access to resources. It's kind of a congested, kind of bad areas. So, you really see it by the end of this

period, the 1950s post World War Two and incredible blue of black suburbs, across the city. Chavis heights, Rochester Heights, Madonna Acres, a lot of these explodes you see a pell-mell escape from downtown to these places that have promised the Americans and dreams. So, one of these neighborhoods pop up around the city and just kind of leave the inner core around the church and the Pope house to decline. 1 

Speaker 1- Reverend Jemonde Taylor 

19:24 

Thank you, Ernest. Thank you, Brooks, and thank you Earl for your comments. We've heard from Mr. Ernest Dollar, Executive Director of the City of Raleigh Museum, the Reverend Dr. Brooks Graebner historiographer for the Episcopal Diocese and Dr. Earl Ijames of the North Carolina Museum of History. Thank you so much for your comments about this time period. 

GROUP 

Thank you very much. 

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Speaker 1- Reverend Jemonde Taylor 

The Wading Deep podcast comes to you from a place we af ectionately call The Brose, Saint Ambrose Episcopal Church, Raleigh, North Carolina. Follow us on Facebook, YouTube, The BroseNC on Twitter and TheBrose1868 on Instagram. 

I am your host, the Reverend Jemonde Taylor. God is going to trouble the water of environmental racism, resurrecting a river of life clear as crystal. 

Shalom, Salaam, Peace.