How human and shared experiences connect to nature. Forms/systems of oppression are perpetuated through the insertion of policies. Community engagement happens through reclaiming, revitalization, and development of green space. How to get community and governmental involvement.
How human and shared experiences connect to nature. Forms/systems of oppression are perpetuated through the insertion of policies. Community engagement happens through reclaiming, revitalization, and development of green space. How to get community and governmental involvement.
Wading Deep Podcast
Carmera_Thomas
Director of Urban Conservation Initiatives, Conservation Fund SPEAKERS: 2
Speaker 1 – Reverend Jemonde Taylor, Rector – St. Ambrose Episcopal Church Speaker 2 – Carmera Thomas – Director of Urban Conservation Initiatives, Conservation Fund
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Speaker 1
0:03
Podcast Introduction-This is Wading Deep, a podcast that explores the connection between environmental justice and race. I'm your host, Reverend Jemonde Taylor Rector at St. Ambrose Episcopal church, Raleigh, North Carolina, a congregation with a long history of challenging environmental racism.
I am honored to welcome today's guest, Carmera Thomas, Director of Urban Conservation Initiatives at the Conservation Fund. Welcome.
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Speaker 2
Thank you so much for having me.
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Speaker 1
Honored to have you. Do you mind telling us about yourself and the work of the Conservation Fund? 2
Speaker 2
0:52
Sure. So, I am the Director of Urban Conservation Initiatives at the Conservation Fund. And before that, I worked for a regional nonprofit organization in Maryland, focusing on the Chesapeake Bay. And I am a community organizer, but also with a background in biology. I have an efficient love for science and the connection to science and people. So that is what I bring to the Conservation Fund and working with our parks with purpose program, which is creating vibrant communities through green infrastructure and park space with a community-based approach.
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Speaker 1
1:35
Fantastic. I also think you have a Rocky Mount connection. Is that correct?
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Speaker 2
I do. I went to undergrad at North Carolina Wesleyan College.
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Speaker 1
My spouse being from Rocky Mount would appreciate that.
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Speaker 2
Oh, nice. I loved it the best four years in my life.
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Speaker 1
1:55
So, what is environmental racism in your own words?
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Speaker 2
Um, I believe that environmental racism is really just the oppression, systematic oppression of low-income communities of color, especially black, Latino, and indigenous communities that are excluded from the environmental movement, but also overburdened by environmental health issues and pollution and environmental hazards
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Speaker 1
2:19
Why do you think this work is so important, bringing awareness to environmental racism? 2
Speaker 2
2:27
Well, I think it is very important to bring that to the work to really think about racism as a whole in America, and how that affects all systems, including the environmental movement as well. I think it's important to highlight this proportionate overburden communities that are vulnerable to health hazards and environmental injustice, it's really important to connect the human experience to the environmental movement in nature. So, it's really important to think about that as a holistic approach to think about how human and shared experiences also connect to nature, and also the injustice that is happening here in America, but also in the environment.
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Speaker 1
3:13
How did you get involved in this? Was there something that happened childhood experience? 2
Speaker 2
3:18
2
Um, well, first and foremost, I'm a black woman in the environmental sector. So, I've definitely experienced some discrimination in my role in different organizations. I've also worked with a lot of community members and leaders who have dealt with issues like flooding and connecting them to resources using the power that I have allowed me to just learn from their experience. And I have worked in many different communities and with a lot of people and recently learned a lot about my grandfather who worked in agriculture for extension from University of Maryland. So that really connected me more to the work but understanding that there are definitely injustices in every sector of life. And seeing that really show up in the environmental space has really led me to be passionate and also advocate for this work.
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Speaker 1
4:14
Appreciate your talk and comment about systems and systematic oppression. And when we think about systematic oppression, we obviously go to topics like policing or the economy. A lot of times we don't think about the environment nature as being a victim of systematic oppression. Can you talk about that how you see that even perhaps coinciding with race?
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Speaker 2
4:39
Sure, um, I think just connecting environmental issues with social and economic issues really stems from what people are dealing with the opportunity for sustainable and healthy neighborhoods exist. There are tools and resources that are out there, you know, finance resources to create vibrant and healthy communities. So, it's important to highlight the issues. But also understand that there are solutions. Whether it's through green infrastructure or urban farming, or even mitigating stormwater issues, a lot of the environmental injustice that I have seen, is really dealing with flooding and climate change impacts, or air quality. And I think just understanding that there are systems that are forms of oppression, through the process of how people get involved in their community through environmental work, how a lot of people of color, especially black and Latino indigenous community have been left out of that left out of those conversations, and not been a part of those policies and procedures that are put into place for their neighborhoods and for their communities. So, it's really important to highlight the environmental issues, but understanding that racism does have an impact and an influence on all of the systems that we're dealing with.
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Speaker 1
6:03
Your mentioning of stormwater and flooding resonates with me, St. Ambrose is ground zero, we are in the floodplain, our neighborhood Rochester Heights experiences flooding, and when you talk about systems of oppression, particularly all of the development that's happening upstream means that the water that's not treated on site flows right past the congregation, right past the church into a neighborhood that's already flooding. Your title as director of urban conservation initiatives is intriguing. And I'm wondering if you could talk more about that and more about your work really, as a systems changer?
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Speaker 2
6:45
Sure, um, well, the Conservation Fund really is understanding of the intersectionality of social justice issues, and environmental issues and how to address them collectively. So, solutions come from communities, grassroots organizing, engaging with decision makers, and stakeholders who have the power of their neighborhood to influence change, assisting communities with creating opportunities for green space access and green infrastructure to mitigate some of those stormwater issues, building capacity and neighborhood. So, there are folks that are part of green teams and earning income through maintaining the park space and engaging their community in the parks and green space. So, it's really identifying the issue, but also working with communities and local organizations to see where the power is, and how those spheres of influence are able to make those changes. So, we are supporting those organizations and supporting communities to come up with these different solutions for those environmental issues and justices.
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Speaker 1
7:57
Do you mind talking about some of the things you've observed? Maybe some specific examples of what communities have done?
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Speaker 2
8:03
Yeah, sure. So, um, I know that in North Carolina right now, we're working with communities in Biltmore Hill in Rochester Heights to increase green space and a Greenway access through the Bailey Drive Gateway Project. And also in Atlanta, where we also have focus, we have supported a lot of park development. So, community spaces that people gather where art is incorporated, where there are just really great spaces for children and families to play safely. And also supporting the main maintenance of those spaces through community engagement and community building. In Washington, DC, we're doing very similar work in a park space in a national park, but supplementing national park service opportunities. So, community members are engaging with folks as they're coming into the park and creating activities and sharing the history along the river and of the space in the park, especially in relation to black history and, and communities that have always lived there and occupy that space. And also, just thinking about placemaking and reclaiming space. So, there are communities in Durham that are reclaiming their land. And just really thinking about all the opportunities to provide jobs and green space and access and fresh food. So just thinking about a holistic approach to environmental issues and being able to support that is really important to the Conservation Fund and our parts of purpose program.
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Speaker 1
9:43
That holistic approach is crucial. We're not only talking about conserving wildlife, or plant life, but really people's health, quality of life, homes, jobs, and a lot of times we are pigeon holed in our thinking and don't have that holistic approach. So, I'm excited to hear of the work the Conservation Fund is doing. Did you do similar work in… in previous posts to previous assignments? 2
Speaker 2
10:12
Yes. So, my previous job, I worked directly with communities in Baltimore City. So, we supported projects that renovated vacant lots and revitalized green space, work with urban farmers who were providing fresh food and access to young people and adults on and communities, and also working directly with residents who are dealing with flooding. So, finding the resources through the city and
the state level to mitigate some of that storm, watch some of those stormwater issues and working with legislators to pass legislation. And also, just hearing from their experience so that we could share their story and advocate for those solutions. So, I've been a part of this work for quite some time, even in my young career. So, before that, I was a community activist in my own neighborhood, just thinking about how, you know, green space access is important. I grew up in an area where we don't have access to water directly for water quality. So that has always been something that I've been really passionate about, and grew up really caring about just from my background. I'm living in Maryland, and also working with communities in eastern North Carolina when I was at school in Rocky Mount as well.
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Speaker 1
11:30
Can you talk more about those early days, growing up? What sparked this interest, because it sounds like this has been a common thread throughout your life.
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Speaker 2
11:43
Um, you know, honestly, it has a lot to do with my parents and my grandparents. I grew up spending summers at my grandmother's house with my cousins, and she would take us out into the garden, and we would plant tomatoes, and we would go fishing on the weekends. And I think just my affinity for nature and feeling very, at peace and nature has really brought me to this work. And then just seeing
how it affects people. And when you have the power to have access to those spaces, how it can really be life changing and healing. And I think that it's just really important to understand that there is a human connection to nature, and that we impact it, and we can also restore it and be at peace in it. I think it's also really important to understand as a black person in particular that we are part of nature and have always been a part of nature. That is something that I've learned, you know, from my, from my parents and from my grandparents that they have always been farmers and cultivators and finding peace in this space. So that has just really, why I love it and why I'm so passionate about it. 1
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Speaker 1
13:00
Know your passion shines through. And I'm glad your voice and actions that you're making an impact in the community. One of the things you just mentioned, was talking about your phrasing that black people belong in nature. When we read much of the literature, it says that African Americans, black people actually do not enjoy being with nature, which is really contrary to our experience as people in this country, who for centuries were agrarian, who were in nature to make that statement makes no sense when you survey more. The question would be, “ Do you enjoy visiting Yosemite National Park?” Well, not everybody can visit Yosemite National Park. So that's your benchmark for being in nature. It's not going to go well. Can you talk more about the ways in which you observe you are observing the black community embracing nature?
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Speaker 2
14:03
Sure. Um, you know, I think that statement comes from a different perspective. You know, people of color, black people, Latino people experience nature differently. Black people in particular might have a negative connotation with nature, a fear of being in the outdoors in the… in the unknown because of what black people have experienced outdoors and nature or being feared of being alone in nature. So, I think that is something to think about, and to understand and acknowledge, but it is really important to also have positive experiences in the outdoors. So, we might not be you know, going camping every weekend but being outside at a community cookout or with our family or enjoying the beach. Those are some of the experiences that I have in my family and I also know a lot of my friends and colleagues who are people of color enjoy enjoying nature in that way. And yes, it is all about access and transportation to and from these national parks and spaces. Not being able to get there is a really big impact on how you experience those national parks and spaces. But I know that when the education and awareness and opportunity is there, there are definitely formative experiences that happen in those spaces and those acts in when you have access to that space. 1
Speaker 1
15:37
You're spot on. Yosemite is not the only benchmark you meant mentioned going to beaches, gardening. This is being in nature. Access is another component when we talk about systemic racism, and blockades. I used to live in New York. And one of the reasons that the bridges that lead to the New York and Long Island beaches are their height is that it does not allow for city buses to pass through. So even the infrastructure has designed it such that a demographic or group of people cannot gain access, because city buses cannot pass under the bridges. So, it's all around us. 2
Speaker 2
All around us. Yes.
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Speaker 1
6
What have been some ways you have seen that have been helpful to get more community members involved. One of the things when we talk about community organizing, it can be challenging to get community buy-in and I'm curious, has that been your experience? And what has worked in getting more community involvement?
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Speaker 2
16:49
Um, yeah, I think it's important to listen first. So um, when identifying and Brixham environmental issues and thinking about a community it's important for organizations or decision makers to take a step back and think about their past influence and their past impact on communities of color. And just listening to how people want to experience nature and, in the outdoors, understanding their issues and what they're dealing with. I've talked previously about my job before the Conservation Fund and working for an organization that's really focused on the Chesapeake Bay, you might not think that Baltimore City is as close to the Chesapeake Bay. And when people hear about that organization, they're like, well, what can you do for me? How can you understand what I'm going through, you are right on the bay, you have access to the water, you have access to the green space, I'm in a city, what does that mean for what I'm dealing with, in the sense of flooding issues, a lot of that was because it's all piped underground. And you know, what happens on the street affects what's going on in the Chesapeake Bay and how that affects water quality and air quality and their overall health as a community. So, bringing that education and awareness, but also understanding that organizations have to listen first, and hear what people are going through, but also how they want to experience that space. They can't be, you know, someone going in and saying, well, this is what might be good for you, based on what we want to do with this space or this or in your community. It really has to be based on the community and in hearing what they have to say and, and then putting that to action and showing up. It might take some time to build those relationships. And that's okay, if you're in it to really make a difference. You have to take the time to build those really authentic and genuine relationships to hear and listen. And it's not just a transactional relationship, it has to be your relationship where you're learning from one another, but then you're also implementing those implementations and actions on the ground as well.
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Speaker 1
19:07
I like your statement about relationships, sometimes it can be transactional, meaning that some group comes up with the solution that was decided on the outside and then gets someone in the community to implement the solution. It may not be the right solution. But the fact that it's transactional almost means that it doesn't work. Because who better to decide about the solution than those who are on the ground?
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Speaker 2
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Absolutely.
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Speaker 1
I know you've done quite a bit of work, not only in communities, but also partnering with governmental agencies. Sometimes people in the community may see the government as an adversary, perhaps for good reason when we look at the legacy of government and oppress people that has not always been the best relationship. And so, the currency of trust is not always there. Can you talk about your experience of helping communities work with governmental entities, elected officials? And have you seen trust grow between both groups?
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Speaker 2
20:15
Sure. Um, well, at the Conservation Fund, we really rely on those relationships in local communities and with local government and municipalities. It's really important to have an on the ground partner that works well with government or the local organization to get this work done. Because we don't have as many staff as we would like to have in all these spaces. So, we really rely on those local partnerships. Also experience a lot of, you know, education and awareness that, you know, communities understand with working with an organization like the Conservation Fund on my previous organization, when they have the tools and the language to go to their elected official, and speak on behalf of themselves and their community, and advocate for policy changes and, you know, programs to be implemented in that space. So, it's really important to know who your champions are, know where you can advocate and understand the full issue and then be able to speak up and speak up for yourself and leverage that power and policy, and also leverage the relationships that you have. When people hear, “Oh, you're we're working with the Conservation Fund or another organization”. People listen, you know, they're like, okay, you know, you have the support of this organization, you have the support of people who are influential, I think that means a lot. And when you have that social capital, that's just as important as financial capital.
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Speaker 1
21:47
Absolutely. And you mentioned one of my favorite words - power. A lot of time people have a negative association with the word power, which simply means the ability to do and when people embrace their power and become empowered, they can do things that they thought were impossible. And you laid out really a great roadmap of how someone on the ground can build relationships with different entities to help change their current situation.
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Speaker 2
22:19
Yes. Yes, it's so important. We all have power, and it's just depends on how we use it and how we use that influence.
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Speaker 1
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What do you find gives you hope, these days?
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Speaker 2
Wow. Um, you know, it gives me hope that people are having conversations about environmental injustice, environmental movement, in many different spaces and communities. I get hope from young people who talk about the injustices and want to fight for their communities. I also get really hopeful when I hear and work for organizations that are really taking a step back to listen and be authentically involved and engage with community members to drive and address environmental issues and challenges. It just also gives me hope to see more people that look like me involved in this space. Um, when I first started working, I was probably the only person of color in the room, the only woman in the room and that is changing and shifting. A lot of my friends who work in this space… it's just really refreshing to see that and to know that we are starting to take that seat at the table and have that influence and power to make decisions for our community 1
Speaker 1
23:48
It could not have been said any better. Thank you so much, Carmera, for being with us in sharing your life experience and wisdom.
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Speaker 2
Thank you. It's a pleasure.
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Speaker 1
Podcast Outro
The Wading Deep podcast comes to you from a place we af ectionately call The Brose, Saint Ambrose Episcopal Church, Raleigh, North Carolina. Follow us on Facebook, YouTube, The BroseNC on Twitter and TheBrose1868 on Instagram.
I am your host, the Reverend Jemonde Taylor. God is going to trouble the water of environmental racism, resurrecting a river of life clear as crystal.
Shalom, Salaam, Peace.
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